How to get a good night's sleep

James Rowe: Longer gone are the days where counting sheep was considered the best way to drift off at night. Instead, these are the tried-and-tested steps that you need to take to get a better night’s sleep. Welcome to this podcast from Which?

Hello, I’m James Rowe and for the next six weeks we’re going to bring you this special podcast series giving you expert advice and recommendations to help you live your best life every day. This week, we’re focusing on sleep, and I’ve assembled a couple of experts to help us out. First of all, Jess Carson is the food and health editor here at Which?. Jess, hello.

Jess Carson: Hello.

James Rowe: Good to have you with us. And Kathryn Pinkham is the founder of the Insomnia Clinic. Kathryn, hello.

Kathryn Pinkham: Hello, thanks for having me.

James Rowe: Thanks for coming in. And later on, Chris Brookes will be joining us. He’s our resident pillows expert. Yes, there is such a thing. He’ll be telling us why choosing the right pillow is crucial. But first, Kathryn, how many of us are actually getting enough sleep? I imagine the number is fairly low.

Kathryn Pinkham: I think recent stats were saying one in three people have trouble sleeping. Used to be one in four and I think the pandemic made things worse and certainly it hasn’t really recovered from then. So, I think that Covid was a time where it was the perfect storm. People were – there was a lot of anxiety, people weren’t leaving the house as much, we lost our routines, people were using their bedrooms for working, for living in, everything changed during that time and we probably haven’t really reset since then. So, one in three. And we live in a society now that’s 24 hours as well, so that doesn’t help that we’re contactable the whole time, we can do anything at any time. All of those things together really play into the challenge that is getting good sleep. One in three is the current statistic.

James Rowe: One in three and there’s three of us here, and I can tell you that I certainly am the one. I certainly don’t sleep too well. Jess, to bring you in here, what’s causing some of these sleepless nights for people?

Jess Carson: I think a lot of the reasons Kathryn just mentioned really. There’s a lot of stress, there’s obviously also been the cost – of – living crisis off the back of the pandemic. People are dealing with a lot in their daily lives, there’s a kind of always – on culture and I think also climate change means that there’s more prolonged hot weather spells and that sort of thing which can also impact how comfortable your sleep environment is. There’s a lot of different factors at play that can impact people’s sleep.

James Rowe: I was reading some really great advice on the Which? website around this and there’s so many elements that can play into this around caffeine or alcohol or exercising at the right time of day. Kathryn, some of the stuff you mentioned about us always being switched on, we never almost fully switch off do we? It almost feels like we’re never ready for sleep.

Kathryn Pinkham: This assumption that we can be 100 miles an hour all day and then suddenly just switch off and everything will go to sleep for eight quality hours of deep, good quality sleep and then wake up is unrealistic. We need to practise during the day, taking a moment, breathing, reducing vigilance, teaching our bodies to calm down and be relaxed, in a relaxed state. If we don’t ever do that and we work all the way up until bedtime on laptops and screens and so on, it causes sleep problems. Now, the problem is that just stopping those things won’t necessarily fix the problem, but it can be one of the reasons that feeds into it and keeps it going. So, the society that we live in certainly lends itself to poor sleep.

James Rowe: And what are some of the signs that we’re not actually sleeping well? It sounds simple on the surface of it doesn’t it, where you can’t drift off at night or you wake up too often, but are there any other signs?

Jess Carson: I suppose if you’re feeling constantly tired during the day, even if you feel like you’re sleeping it might be that you’re not getting good quality sleep. But yeah, I think really it’s struggling to get to sleep, waking up a lot, all those are signs that something’s not quite right.

James Rowe: And in your day – to – day job Kathryn, is there anything else that you would consider an alarm bell for somebody that they’re not getting enough sleep and these are some of the symptoms that are bringing it on?

Kathryn Pinkham: So, we would class somebody as having signs of insomnia if they are struggling to fall asleep so taking longer than about half an hour regularly, so more than three times a week. If they’re awake during the night, if they’re waking up too early, if they’re feeling unrefreshed during the day. Generally, if it’s starting to feel out of control, so it’s something that you’re thinking about, you have the opportunity to sleep but you’re not able to do it, those would all be signs that someone is starting to have a sleep issue.

In terms of how it impacts upon them, short – term impacts are really clear. We don’t look as good, we feel more irritable, we’re less emotionally aware perhaps, lower levels of mood, higher levels of anxiety, they’re all short – term. And then long – term we know that it can be linked to physical health problems as well – obesity, Alzheimer’s, heart disease, those kind of things. So, there’s lots of impacts to not getting enough sleep and to being sleep – deprived. Most people focus on the immediate one – how it feels in that moment – but generally we’re working with people who are feeling like it is out of control and it’s creating stress and anxiety. So, whether the stress causes it in the first place or not doesn’t really matter, what we know is that anxiety will become part of the problem because it’s difficult to be positive and in a good mood if you just know you’re not getting enough sleep. It’s really hard to tie those two in together.

James Rowe: And perhaps one of the big signposts for the fact that you’re not sleeping well is maybe when other people say "Oh, you look a bit tired". Because it’s all well and good you saying yourself "I really struggled to drift off last night" but if you visibly look tired then somebody might flag it and clearly that’s a big sign as well isn’t it?

Kathryn Pinkham: Yeah, and I think a lot of people if we were to ask people "What is it about – what is it that’s adding the pressure to sleep for you? Why do you want to sleep well? Why is it important to you?" it would be things like "I don’t look as good". The reality is most people have never been told that, it is usually how we feel and what we perceive other people to be thinking about us, but you’re right, if someone was to mention it, certainly it would amplify it for someone who’s got anxiety around sleep definitely.

James Rowe: And is it worth trying to distinguish the difference here between one bad night’s sleep in a week or every so often compared to nearly every night? There’s a difference right?

Kathryn Pinkham: Absolutely, and I think so insomnia is – it’s happening regularly, you’re thinking about it, you can’t control it, your desire to sleep is there and you can’t do it. That’s insomnia. Poor nights are normal. We all have bad nights. It doesn’t matter how – I’m a sleep expert and I would have a bad night. If we’re stressed we don’t sleep well, if we have new babies we don’t sleep well. So, we are designed to cope with sleep loss, that is something that our bodies can cope with for a short time. It becomes insomnia when we can’t break the pattern, so when one night becomes a week becomes a spiral into months and months and years. That’s when it’s more of an issue. So, the difference between one bad night and insomnia is how we interpret it. If we don’t care about our bad night or if we accept it and we know the reason and we don’t mind, we’ll probably get back to normal pretty quickly. If we don’t accept it and we feel the pressure and we want to fix it and we try too hard to fix it, that’s when it will become an insomnia problem. So, a lot of the tips that I can share today are around actually whatever stage you are at on that spectrum, whether it’s early stages or later, actually if we can nip it in the bud we can stop it spiralling out of control, because you will have a bad night but if we always know how to handle that bad night correctly it doesn’t need to spiral into something bigger.

Jess Carson: I think that’s such an important point as well because if you’re constantly seeing news stories about how sleep deprivation can cause all these terrible things, it can add so much pressure if you don’t sleep well. I think people do feel this pressure to have a perfect night’s sleep every night, so I think it is really important to acknowledge that it happens to all of us but it’s when it becomes a problem is when it’s persistent and it’s affecting your daily life.

James Rowe: Is there a perfect night’s sleep? Or at least the amount of time we should be sleeping for? I often think that people have said eight hours in the past. Is that realistic? Should we be aiming for that?

Jess Carson: Well, the NHS advice is seven to nine hours and that’s quite general advice that’s given as ideal for adults. Children need a bit more, but as I’m sure Kathryn will probably elaborate on everyone is different and what’s right for you might fall slightly outside of that. I think probably the important thing is that you feel well – rested.

Kathryn Pinkham: It’s the quality not the quantity, that’s what I would always say to anyone who I work with is don’t get hung up on how many hours. Let’s just work on the quality and then you can look at the quantity after that. But six hours of good quality sleep is much better for us than eight hours of broken, fractured, stressful sleep.

James Rowe: Because sometimes it can feel like you’ve been in bed for ten, twelve hours and you don’t actually feel well – rested when you wake up, so it’s certainly not about the number.

Kathryn Pinkham: And that’s exactly what causes insomnia. So, this idea that let’s say I slept poorly last night, it’s on my mind that I’ve slept badly so I’ll go to bed early tonight, I’ll perhaps have a bit of a lie – in tomorrow morning. So, what I would do is I would extend my time in bed to try to get more sleep. But actually what happens is I’ve just given myself a bigger window of time in bed where the sleep becomes more fractured because my appetite for sleep is not strong enough. I’m now relating my bed to feeling frustrated, feeling irritated. So, it all starts to spiral out of control when we make choices like that, like going to bed earlier, getting up later. Those are the kind of things that people naturally do to try to fix it, but actually all we’ve done is given ourselves much more opportunity to create a bond and a connection with our bed that is actually become really negative and is not about sleeping. So, quality is more important. Less time in bed is better for us than more if we’re not sleeping well.

James Rowe: And this is the point around restricting your sleep, right? Trying to make sure you get the right amount of time in bed but marrying it up with the amount of time you actually sleep as well isn’t it?

Kathryn Pinkham: Yeah, it’s one of the techniques that’s suggested. So, you work out how much sleep you typically get and then you work backwards from the time you want to wake up to that amount, add 30 minutes, see how that goes and then you can gradually increase the time you spend in bed. But first, you make sure that you’re sleeping for that specific amount of time. Is that roughly right?

Kathryn Pinkham: Yeah, so we call – I always call it sleep scheduling because I think sleep restriction scares people, they think it’s going to be like two hours in bed. But yeah, it’s exactly that. So, if you’re in bed for eight hours but you only get on average about six hours of sleep, then I would be saying to people okay just adjust your window so that you get six hours’ opportunity. Work with your wake time, so again if it’s 6:00 am, you’re going to go to bed at midnight, you’re going to wake at six. And what we’re doing here is we’re using your appetite for sleep to build some momentum. So, our sleep drive is created by time out of bed. So, the earlier I wake up, the later I go to bed, the stronger that momentum and that drive, that appetite for sleep will be. So, if I consistently go to bed at twelve and get up at six, what I’m doing there is I’m creating a nice strong drive for the sleep. I’m also teaching my body clock "this is your only opportunity between twelve and six". I’m not going to go to bed at 9:30 just because I’m tired, I’m not going to lie in until eight just because I can. This is the only window of time there is. So, that sleep scheduling helps us to sort of regulate our body clock, but also to develop this really healthy appetite for sleep, which you’d mentioned before about going to bed earlier when you know you have to get up the next morning. So, it’s a really common mistake that people make is "if I know I’ve got to get up for a flight tomorrow morning, I’ll go to bed at 9:30 or 10:00 when my normal bedtime is 11:00". The problem is my body clock doesn’t know what’s happening tomorrow, it doesn’t work like that. I can’t just bring forward that drive and that appetite for sleep. So, actually you’re much better off going to bed at your normal time, getting less sleep but keeping the quality, or even going to bed a bit later. You see what I mean? So, rather than trying to adjust it in the hope that your body will understand what’s happening tomorrow, it doesn’t work that way. So, a later bedtime and earlier wake time is the first thing I would advise anybody to do if you’re struggling with your sleep. So, none of this sort of going up to your room at 9:00 pm and winding down for two hours and so on. It’s not necessary, just reserve your bed for going to sleep later on.

Jess Carson: I feel like we’ve both learned something there because we both confessed to making that error already.

James Rowe: Yeah, I’m always one who I have to get up once a week very early in comparison to the rest of the week and I always think "oh well I’ll go to bed earlier" because intuitively you think it would make sense, but what you’re saying to us is try and forget that. As difficult as it is, forget it.

Kathryn Pinkham: Yeah, go to bed at your normal time. Or if it’s on your mind that "I’ve got this early start" and you’re sort of conscious of it, accept that actually that night might not be as good but it’s okay. We can cope with it anyway because as you were saying James last night the reality is you go to bed at ten, you’re not sleeping until half twelve anyway. So, it doesn’t work and in fact it makes it more stressful. So, actually just stay up to your normal time. And it is intuitively everybody wants to get more sleep because we think more sleep equals performance and so on the next day, but actually we can’t force our body to bring forward its sleep in that way. Usually you end up lying in bed for even longer awake.

James Rowe: And how easy is it for somebody to adjust to this kind of schedule? Trying to fit it into a new routine of going "okay well I’m so used to lying there for an hour, hour and a half, okay well I’ll set that back". How easy is it to adjust?

Kathryn Pinkham: I’d say the biggest barrier to it is anxiety. That people will think "but it takes me two hours to fall asleep, if you’re asking me to go to bed two hours later it’s still going to take me two hours". This idea that it’s less sleep, it’s not, it’s less time in bed. So, I think once someone can understand the rationale behind this, that actually it’s scientifically proven that if we create this schedule we can promote that healthier sleep drive. But it can be anxiety – provoking, so if the idea of doing that makes you feel anxious, I would say even if you can just go to bed half an hour later and set your alarm for half an hour earlier, just do that for a while instead. It’s not less time asleep, it’s just less time in bed. And it’s the time in bed awake, feeling frustrated, tossing and turning, worrying about the next day. That’s what creates insomnia. That’s what keeps this cycle going where your bed becomes a battleground. So, all we’re doing is reducing that time rather than time asleep. It’s also not forever. If we – if you have to reduce your window to six hours to fix the problem, as soon as the problem is fixed you’re falling asleep quicker, you’re waking less in the night because that drive is better, then you can open out the window a little bit and you can maybe get back to somewhere where you’d rather be. So, it’s not forever, it’s short – term pain for long – term gain, but I would always encourage people to look at – it might feel scary to do it, but your current pattern isn’t working for you anyway. It’s not like what you’re currently doing is working, otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to make the change. So, in answer to your question, yes it can be anxiety – provoking but just adapt, do a little bit less.

James Rowe: Well, I’m getting plenty of advice at least anyway so I’ll be taking plenty of advice home today. Also, about getting a good night’s sleep, you require the very best mattress and pillow. A little bit earlier on I sat down with our pillows expert Chris Brookes to find out what advice he has on choosing the right one for you.

Chris Brookes, welcome to the podcast.

Chris Brookes: Thanks for having me.

James Rowe: It’s great to have you here. You are the expert for all things pillows here at Which?. It’s safe to say that it’s not just as easy as walking into a shop, picking a pillow up off the shelf and going home. That’s not going to get you the best night’s sleep is it?

Chris Brookes: Well, the problem is that the pillow market is just so huge. There’s such a range of different categories that you can go for. But we sort of broadly split it into three main areas. The first is polyester, which tend not to be as long – lasting but you have the option of being able to choose soft, medium, firm depending on how firm you like your pillow. Then we have the feather and down pillows, which tend to be softer. They’re more long – lasting, but you often have to plump them up. So, if you don’t like the feeling of sinking down into your pillow then that could be a bit of a problem. And then between the two is the memory foam pillows, which often have layers that you can add or remove or even individual cubes that you can take out, so you really get the option of adjusting the firmness to your preferred setting.

James Rowe: And you’re really going to get a different night’s sleep aren’t you depending on which one you choose. So, I guess if you’re a heavy sleeper or how does it work in terms of choosing which one’s right for you?

Chris Brookes: Well, the way that we do it when we’re testing, we ask people whether they normally sleep on their front, their back or their side. Because this can have a big impact on how firm or soft they like the pillow. So, for front sleepers for example, they tend to do better if they have a softer pillow that they can sink into. Whereas side and back sleepers may prefer a little bit more firmness to support their neck. But ultimately it comes down to your personal preference. So, a good idea is to try out a few pillows if you can, go into a showroom potentially just so that you get a sense of how comfortable that feels for you, because it really is personal preference.

James Rowe: I think a lot of people may be used to heading into a shop and testing out a mattress for example. You can lie on it and work out how it feels for you. And I’ve done that recently, but I didn’t do it for a pillow. But I feel like now I should have really done that to ensure I’m getting the right one. Is that something you’d recommend going out there and doing?

Chris Brookes: If you can’t do that, we’ve sort of done the next best thing which is we have – when we’re testing pillows, we get 30 or 40 volunteers to test each one back to back and they give their personal preferences.

James Rowe: And these are different types of sleepers, right?

Chris Brookes: Yeah. So, the first thing we do is ask what type of sleeper they are. And then when we collect the data, we divide this up to make it easier to tell if there’s a common theme, common trend for front sleepers or side sleepers and what pillow they prefer.

James Rowe: So, with that in mind then, give us a little bit more on how we test them then. So, we’ve got those volunteers in those rooms, they’re all giving them a try out. What happens next? How do we get the results and the data?

Chris Brookes: So, we found that the best way to test pillows was to actually have as many volunteers as we could get because this gives us a broad range of opinions and it also allows us to reach a consensus. So, these 30 or 40 volunteers will come into the room and try 10 to 12 pillows back to back and they’ll rate them for comfort on their back, side and front. They’ll also tell us how cool they feel, how supported their neck feels. And then they’ll give them all a rating. With this rating then we then decide which ones are going to be the Best Buys. So, for the top – scoring Best Buy it’s actually come out on top two years running and that’s with different testers. So, you’ve really got confidence that this is a very comfortable pillow that people enjoy.

James Rowe: And what’s ultimately going to happen if, going back to what I said at the start, if you do just go into a shop, pick one up and it ends up not being the right type for you? You’re not going to have the best night’s sleep are you?

Chris Brookes: The right pillow can really make such a difference to how well you sleep. A lot of the pillows that you may pick up potentially in the supermarket tend to be quite cheap, polyester pillows that don’t tend to last very long as well. You may notice them starting to yellow quite quickly, they may not feel as firm for as long. So, it is actually a decision that’s worth being a little bit more considered rather than rushing into it. You’re much more likely to have a better night’s sleep by doing that.

James Rowe: And in terms of price range then, what should you be spending, what kind of price tags should you be looking out for for a decent one of the different types – of the feather, the microfiber and the memory foam?

Chris Brookes: Well, the memory foam pillows tend to be at the upper end of the market, so you’re looking to spend potentially £70, £80, even over £100 on these types of pillows. But some people just love them and they wouldn’t go back to another type of pillow. They like the fact that they’re adjustable and they can change the firmness as they like, a lot of them are. For the feather and down pillows, these tend to be a little bit more in the middle, potentially £40, £50 sort of pound mark. And some people just prefer that, they’ve always slept on a feather and down pillow and that’s what they like. And then finally we have the polyester pillows. Just because they are polyester it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not going to give you a good night’s sleep and in fact one of our Best Buy pillows is a polyester pillow. You can pick these up for just a few pounds. So, it really does come down to what you’re looking for.

James Rowe: And Which? members, a Which? membership that you have can give you access to all of those reviews so you can find out which ones are the Best Buys and the great values. Before we wrap up, I must ask about cleaning a pillow and washing a pillow, because that’s also something that’s really important to ensuring you do sleep well at night isn’t it?

Chris Brookes: It is, it is. So, each pillow is cleaned or washed differently, so the best thing to do is look at the manufacturer instructions. Some of them can go in the washing machine, but don’t automatically assume that it can. And then there’ll be certain restrictions on how hot the washing machine is, whether you put it on a tumble dry setting or whether you leave it to air dry. So, the best thing to do, look at the label and check with the manufacturer.

James Rowe: And should I feel bad about the fact that I’ve never washed a pillow? Am I the only one or is that quite a common thing that a lot of us fall into that trap?

Chris Brookes: You’re probably not the only one. We do recommend that you wash them every few months. Even though people wash their beddings they sometimes do forget about the actual pillows themselves, but we do recommend cleaning it every few months.

James Rowe: Well, at least I’m not the only one. Chris, thanks very much for your time.

Chris Brookes: Thank you very much.

James Rowe: Jess and Kathryn are still with us. Jess, some of the key things to getting a good night’s sleep revolve around doing the right thing in the morning first thing and at night just before bed as well. What should we be doing in these at these times of day?

Jess Carson: Yeah, so some of this advice is really about resetting your body’s circadian rhythm or body clock. So, getting out in the morning in the daylight and getting active can help to kind of reset that. And then trying to avoid blue light at night can help because that can interrupt it and kind of keep you more alert when you’re in bed. So, a lot of people suggest trying to avoid that. You can switch to night mode on your phone or your tablet and that uses yellower light so there’s less blue light. But these things might not help but I think if you’re having issues they’re worth trying because there is some science behind them.

James Rowe: I was going to say, I think what we’re learning so far is that this is not necessarily an exact science, there’s just so many different elements that come into play with all this. And you saying "oh you should be active in the morning, you should avoid your phone at night", I’m thinking "oh my goodness, I’m not active in the morning, I use my phone in bed". I feel like so many people fall into these traps. Do you both agree?

Jess Carson: Yeah, I mean I think blue light sends me to sleep but there we go.

James Rowe: And Kathryn, you must speak to people at the clinic who come in and you ask them about their routine and they are using their phone in bed or they’re not active enough. Does this sort of ring true with a lot of the stuff you do?

Kathryn Pinkham: Yeah, and I suppose there’s nothing – the advice that we’re talking about here is sort of sleep hygiene, so making sure we’re doing lots of exercise, eating well, hydrating, those kind of things. They’re really good lifestyle advice and absolutely for somebody who thinks "I think I should look at my quality of sleep and improve how I manage my sleep", it’s good advice. It’s not bad advice for any of us to take on board those things. I guess the people that I’m working with, when you have an insomnia problem so you’re consistently not able to fall asleep or you’re awake at 3:00 am, exercising in the morning, reducing caffeine in the morning or reducing your screen time is not going to have a massive impact on the problems that you’ve got. So, that’s not to say that you shouldn’t make those changes, but if anyone out there’s going "I have perfect sleep hygiene, I do everything right and I still can’t sleep", that’s because actually sleep hygiene is not a cure for an insomnia problem, it’s just something to help us manage it better and it can play a part and it can be part of the jigsaw that got us there in the first place. So, absolutely be aware of your environment and how you’re behaving around sleep and make those changes, but CBT for insomnia techniques and tools are going to get to the root of the problem rather than just dealing with the symptoms of it.

James Rowe: And this comes back I guess to what we were talking before about how insomnia is very different to an occasional bad night.

Kathryn Pinkham: Yes, absolutely.

James Rowe: Jess, should we talk about getting the bedroom right for sleep? Because I guess there’s so many of us who just don’t have the right setup. There’s either too much light coming in and that kind of thing. Are there any quick changes? Or not necessarily quick changes but some changes that we can make to the bedroom anyway?

Jess Carson: Yeah, so I think this probably comes a little bit into that sleep hygiene thing and it’s like you say if you’ve got a more established or serious problem it’s probably not going to be the thing that fixes it. But I think it’s always worth taking a look at what you’re doing and seeing if there’s any areas that you can improve. So, yeah, some studies show that if you’ve got more light at night, that can increase your sleep issues, so aiming for a dark bedroom. Whether that’s if you don’t have blackout blinds or curtains you can get those, obviously that can be quite a pricey option, so a more budget option would be to get a sleep mask so that you can get darkness while you sleep. And in summertime you may want your windows open because you’re too hot, obviously being too hot can impact you sleeping as well, but then the flip side is if you open your window you might then get noise. Where I live it’s a very small lane but every so often at 4:00 in the morning a tractor rolls past and it’s very, very noisy and it wakes me up. So, then you might need to look into getting some good earplugs just to try to offset that. It’s just trying to kind of minimise the things that might disturb you. Make sure your environment’s comfortable. If your bedroom’s far too hot or far too cold or you’ve got your winter duvet on and it’s 30 degrees, those things are going to have an impact on getting restful sleep. So, just trying to kind of sense – check those things and also when did you last replace your pillows, how old is your mattress? These things do need to be replaced and I think the time can fly by and suddenly you realise your mattress is 20 years old. So, it’s worth kind of thinking about "is everything helping me get a good night’s sleep?"

James Rowe: And we talked to Chris a little bit earlier on about pillows and you mentioned mattresses there as well. Obviously trying to get the right one for you will help, but again as we’ve discussed, not one thing will necessarily fix all the problems.

Jess Carson: Yeah, and I mean personally I found if you’re having sleep issues anyway then absolutely everything that you’re sleeping on or in your bedroom annoys you and it’s probably more because you’re struggling to sleep than that suddenly everything’s become horribly uncomfortable. So, it’s a bit of a balancing act there, but if you do have an ancient mattress then that might be a thing that you need to look at.

James Rowe: Yes, and we’ve got plenty of reviews of mattresses and indeed pillows on the Which? website available to Which? members as well as, believe it or not, reviews for eye masks and earplugs. So, plenty for you to go and read about.

Jess Carson: Yeah, and part of the reason we’ve kind of expanded some of those areas is they’re really, really popular and our sleep tips stories are also really popular so we know that a lot of you out there are struggling to get a good night’s sleep and we’re trying to find all the ways that we can help.

James Rowe: And also, I want to touch on fitness trackers. Because I wanted to know if these can help as well to at least track the amount of sleep we’re getting. Jess, Kathryn, who wants to give us a bit on this? Jess, do you want to go first?

Jess Carson: It’s a really interesting one. I think some people will find them helpful, but there is a big caveat that the sleep tracking is not perfect on these devices. In fact, I tried one out for Which? and it thought I was asleep when I was cycling into work. So, I don’t quite know how it figured that and sometimes it thought I was asleep when I wasn’t even wearing it and I think it should probably have been concerned that I didn’t have a heart rate. But there we go. I think it can be useful but there is evidence that some people get very fixated on it and again it increases the anxiety because every morning you look at your watch and you think "oh well I haven’t had the exact amount of sleep I should have had" or "oh no I had a broken sleep". So, I think it can be a useful tool for some people, it sort of depends a bit on the kind of person you are, but take it with a pinch of salt. It’s not as accurate as it may look and it can have a sort of negative effect. So, swings and roundabouts.

James Rowe: And again, we’ve got plenty of reviews of fitness trackers on the Which? website for Which? members. If you’re listening and aren’t already a Which? member then you can head to which.co.uk/podcastoffer to sign up to get 50% off a Which? membership, an offer exclusively available to you our podcast listeners. Kathryn, your thoughts on fitness trackers? Can they help?

Kathryn Pinkham: So, I completely agree with Jess. I don’t know how accurate they are all across the board, but for me the bigger issue is that if you are struggling with insomnia you don’t need to check an app to tell you that, you know because you were there. You were awake half the night feeling stressed and worried about it. So, you wake up in the morning, the first thing you do is check it and just like you said you then adapt your whole day. And the problem with that approach is that if I change my whole day based on my sleep pattern, I’ve added even more pressure to tomorrow night, so tomorrow night’s going to be even worse. So, for me if someone has any kind of anxiety around sleep, I would say just don’t track it at all. It becomes irrelevant because what sleep trackers are hugely lacking in is any sort of evidence – based quality advice. All they’re doing is telling you that you’re not sleeping well, which is what you knew anyway. So, it’s great for somebody who had no idea they weren’t sleeping very well. I’ve never met a person who didn’t know, but I presume there must be someone out there who didn’t realise how bad it was and then it told them and they made changes. The vast majority of people they know that their sleep is not good enough, so all that tracker does is add extra pressure that you don’t need, you’ve already decided you want to fix it. So, for me there’s not a lot to be gained unless they’re able to then offer some really evidence – based help at the end of it. So, yeah, treat with caution I would say.

James Rowe: Well, before we wrap up and get your final thoughts, going to throw this one in to see what you both think. Should we be avoiding napping in the afternoon when we’re a bit tired? Kathryn, I imagine you might have a few feelings about this one because it’s always – it always feels like a good decision until you then wake up from the nap.

Kathryn Pinkham: Yeah, so I think the thing with napping is – so there’s a couple of things with napping. We talked about that sleep appetite, that drive for sleep. In order to get a nice healthy drive for sleep, we need to be awake for as long as possible. So, if you are struggling with sleep, napping’s not a good idea because you’re sort of taking from your pot, you’ve borrowed a bit of sleep that actually we want to reserve for later. Saying that, if there’s a reason why you’re not getting enough sleep, maybe you have a new baby or work hours, something’s happened which is restricting your sleep, then napping is great as long as we keep it earlier in the day, so I’d say not later than sort of 2:00, 3:00 in the afternoon, and if you keep them under 20 to 25 minutes. What that will do is it will give you a boost to get you up until bedtime but it shouldn’t impact too much on your night – time sleep. And unless you are somebody who’s a really good napper, don’t intend to nap. I would say just turn your phone onto silent, set an alarm for 25 minutes, close your eyes and just take some deep breaths – what can you hear, what can you smell, what can you feel. If you nod off, great. If you don’t, you’ll still get an energy boost from having been mindful and grounded for 20 minutes, which can be just as useful to us. So, again take the pressure off, you don’t have to sleep to get the boost that you need. And if you can’t sleep and you’re getting wound up then give up and napping’s not for you. So, napping’s okay as long as we do it in the right way.

James Rowe: Oh well, some permission to maybe have a nap then. That’s good news at least. Well, shall we wrap up then? Jess, any final thoughts? Anything that we’ve said and you really want to hammer that point home or anything we haven’t touched on? What do you want to leave everybody with today?

Jess Carson: I think check you’ve got the basics right, don’t get too hung up on any particular thing and I guess the other thing I would say is if it’s a new sleep issue or you can’t easily identify why you’re suddenly struggling to sleep, it is also worth seeing your GP just to check there’s nothing else going on.

James Rowe: And Kathryn?

Kathryn Pinkham: I would say my best piece of advice is rather than just focusing on sleep, focus on how you feel about the sleep. If you’re aware it’s causing you a lot of stress, if you’re worrying about it a lot, that’s actually the thing to focus on. So, taking that pressure off your sleep, going to bed later, waking up earlier, set your alarm for the morning. Those sort of things are going to be helpful from a behavioural point of view, but actually from a cognitive and a psychological point of view, if the sleep is what’s causing you the anxiety then look at ways of managing and understanding your anxiety around sleep because it’s hard to sleep when actually your body is in a state of vigilance and worry. So, make sure you’re focusing on everything, not just the sleep.

James Rowe: Loads to consider there then, and plenty to sleep on if you will. Thanks both for coming in. Kathryn, thanks very much.

Kathryn Pinkham: Thank you.

James Rowe: And Jess, thank you.

Jess Carson: Thank you.